Gelieve te adviseren op cluster 4 school in Utrecht

advice

Unfortunately there is no shortcut to adequate education for special needs kids in the Netherlands. It requires a lot of involvement and committment, time investment, of yourself and your partner.
I think the best you can do is call or email http://www.onderwijsconsulenten.nl/
Since your son has been admitted to a cluster 2 school they probably will accept him for advise. They are very busy at the moment since we are in a transition of special care and special education for kids.
I don't know where you come from but here in the Netherlands the special needs care is of very different quality and hard to find, and if you find something it can be shortlived.
Concentrate on education even if your son is at home since these roads can be timeconsuming with waitinglists and counterproductive and opposite advice from different professionals.
The cluster 2 school is in a workingrelation with other schools and they will advice you where to attend. If you make another choice outside their ring of schools they are less able to help you and you can have a child that goes without any school, and be fined bij the truance officer, even if it is not your fault and the system fails you.
So the best thing to do is hope 'onderwijsconsulenten' will take you on and advice you what to do. They are the experts and you should take their advice they are the best.
Don't underestimate the challenge you have and avoid all sorts of other careworkers at all costs.

thank you!

Thank you very much, AnneJ

Yes, you are right, we've been already fighting for almost a year to be heard. I am a logopedist with neuropsychology education, so sometimes that helps, and sometimes it is just frustrating.... I know my rights, the child's rights and all, but I don't see how twisting their arm would help... the school is already lying about some things, and twisting stuff, it's crazy... :-/

I will contact onderwijsconsulenten tomorrow!

Just, please, tell me what do you mean with 'avoid all sorts of other careworkers at all costs'? Who are they? You mean, someone outside the school, 'experts' offering help and treatmant?

Again, thank you for your help

the law

Parents have almost no rights in the caresystem and in the educational system. Schools and caregivers can report you and they will if they are out of options or you beg to differ. You can win the courtsessions if you keep your calm, but it is a waste of time and distracting from the help you need for your special needs kid.

Ooook...

Hallo, Anne,

Well... I did hear about a 'support network' (when you're cluster 4) that would include someone coming to your home and I saw by now that the system is wicked (GGD...), I didn't plan to involve a psychiatrist on my side anyway (I didn't explain that well, sorry, examinations of my boy that were done - psychologist, psychiatrist - were done when I visited home, Croatia, a month ago - I did it because I don't have trust in doctors and in the system here so much... :-/

Now I am worried and must be on my guard so I will bother you some more - so, if my child go to cluster 4, we need an indication, right? So, there will be psychologist and psychiatrist involved, he must have a diagnosis, and then, some additional help will be offered, in a form of these 'caregivers' that come to your house... and I can refuse it? And stay away from this CPS?

I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand this part: 'So, if you need help go to your general practitioner and ask for a free working psychiatrist, don't go for less, the pressure to 'report'you to cps, especially if you have your own ideas is high.'

So, I could go to a psychiatrist through my huisarts? They are 'safe'? Because if I confide to huisarts he will report me to CPS? Did I understand that right?

You are right, trying to balance my behavior by being a robot when talking to them is really tiring and difficult... and when they shock me like the school did now, it didn't work :-/
It's war, I have to be colder...

Thank you so much, Anne!

Keep files

Keep all the information at hand and correspond with the school with emails. If they mention a behavioural problem with your son point at the regular school that handled him wrong. You have no problems at home and will solve it yourself when needed. But you need school to handle your son well so he does not develop dysfunctional behaviour where he needs te be adressed with patiencen, understanding and care. And not with force without explanation. That will make kids with autism desperate and in need of strategies to avoid the pain. I.c. the behavioural problems.

school

In the new system we have since august 2014 school does not need to know any diagnosis but they have to respond to the educational need of your kid. But we don't know how schools will attend to this. If needed you have to find a psychiatrist (or psychologist, but they cannot provide medicatio when needed) who will diagnose your kid. But most important, the school of your kid might need instructions how to handle your kid. You can make them yourselve but when needed you can do so with the authority of the psychiatrist. Still without mentioning a diagnosis to school.
Most gp's are known for underreporting to CPS. Hope this will stay that way. That is becaus they are in the best position to give real care and solutions. Ask your gp about the psychiatric care in your neighbourhood and the trustworthyness of a caregiver.
Always mention your profession in the terms of logopedie and neurology, adversories may perceive this as a possibility against reporting. Don't stress your native country, Croatia is seen as a less developed country and everything can be used against you. Just don't mention it unless it is unavoidable. Mention that you came here indeed as highly professional workers. Points in your advantage. Appearances are everything.
I don't know if you can avoid workers that come with the schoolsystem. They may refuse you if you do.
Stress that you don't need help at home and you need your privacy to be respected. Your professional training will provide the necessary knowledge and you offer to come to any instruction meeting they will give. Ask onderwijsconsulenten if you can refuse this.
It is a difficult situation.
I refused giving permission to school to adress the caregivers and CPS untold to me, and behind my back. But my kid is already in school so they suggested on the form that they will nog accept your kid if you don't. I guess a new kid is a risk.
You may start procedures around this type of offence of your rights but that may take years and you can loose them.

you're right

Yes, I have to keep it tight, I see that...

I just contacted onderwijsconsulenten and they will call me for a meeting, they confirmed that it is confidential and that they don't share anything with anyone, unless I want them to, so I hope it will be ok...

There are ways to demand of school to invest more, I agree, but since they have an agenda, I don't know how they would improve... their aim is to prove that he doesn't belong, so I don't have faith that the will actually try :-/

I just talked to a cluster 4 school that seem to fit his issues, they seem ok, I just must go and see...

Anyway, even if he does get a diagnosis, they must help him if his primary problem is communication, which is (they are just trying to twist it and blame it on his behavior)...

We are still not in this phase of 'caregiveres' on our neck, in cluster 2 schools I don't see any. This is just a conclusion of a 'teamleader' of this school, that he should go to cluster 4 (+ the complaining teachers who don't want to do their job).... so, I guess that if things get complicated and we begin a process for cluster 4, all the 'caregivers' will emerge, especially if he does end up in c4 school...

Thank you for all the advices, my strategy is getting clearer.

support network

You can ask the school for its ideas on childrearing. Sometimes they will tell you that they use 'Geef me de vijf' or other adequate literature. But in fact most of em don't have highly developed practical ideas. They stick to simple ideas like 'reduce computertime with kids' and reward systems sometimes even with candy. They can't comprehend more sophisticated ideas and if they can they don't expect parents to be able to implement them. The careworker i had at home called my questions 'higher education' Which she was not able to provide for.
But sometimes you meet brilliant workers but they are the exception.

Anne j, please stop

Anne J, Thanks for the advice to contact http://www.onderwijsconsulenten.nl/
I hope there is someone available who speaks English well enough.
However there is no need to scare off Elen any further.

Her case is not the same as yours. She will not have to fear for the things you've been through.
She has even less to be afraid off, simply because of her (family) is English.

Elen, did you ever consider sending your child to one of the International Schools?
http://www.sio.nl

Contact them. They might be able te help as well.

Contamination

I understand your concern Miriam, you don't want to contaminate someone with my experience. But foreigners are in fact more vulnerable to actions from CPS, becaus they are perceived as less informed in the Dutch situation and more in need of their 'help'.

Thanks, M Lavell

Hallo, there

Thank you for your input, and it is great that I hear from all sides that contacting onderwijsconsulenten is good. I did, they will put a consultant on my case and we will meet and all...

I understand (and I am very sad) that Anne had a tragic experience and that it may not be the same for us, but it's good to know that you can stand your ground and not automatically say 'yes' to everything. It is difficult when you are a foreigner, you don't know enough, you feel inadequate and it's easier to go with the flow :-/

So M., thank you for balancing it, it gives me more courage.

But, we are not English, we came from Croatia (and even worse, I am originally from Serbia)... I'm just educated
It is true that I was forced to explain that I'm not some helpless and dumb savage person... It is sad that I have to 'pull ranks' to get respect, but it happens sometimes, what can you do

Some people recommended international school before, but I think they don't fit, because of my boy's problems, also I'm trying to discourage him from learning English (because of his issues) ) We live here, we all must learn Dutch sooner or later

Thank you, again, I really cherish all the information and opinion.

Language

If not already also beware of underdeveloped ideas as speech delay as a lack of experience in speaking Dutch. Educate yourself to prompt answers to ideas of changing to develop your mothertongue with your son in speaking your own inadeqaute Dutch at home. You can additionally improve your son's Dutch, by yourself reading books together or by hiring someone to do so outside school, coming over to play and read in Dutch with your son.
Even trained second language specialists in the school system can come up with this idea, if not other staff. I know, my own sister does that and I have a hard time convincing her of the inadequacy of advicing parents to do so.

that's it, Anne

Yes, that's my conclusion...

It is good to know that you have to be wise and careful, and it's good to know that it is not all slaughterhouse. In the end, I have to trust someone while deciding, right...)

Language

Of course, if someone mentions that (speech delay as a lack of experience), I explain why they are wrong..

I agree with you.
Children very well separate languages to appropriate people and situations.
So, he doesn't want me to speak Dutch to him, anyway Since we can not use only one language in total, it is best to keep it separate.

communication and socialization

What is perceived in autistic kids as a problem in communication and socialization in fact is the result of overstimulation and not intuitivelly perceiving the theory of mind.
Combined with a literal perceiving of language and difficulties with symbolism.
Giving emotions, symbolism en several subjects in a 'flooded' verbal story of you, and your tone of voice, makes it more difficult for kids with autism to understand what is expected of them.
They can be heavily distracted by chaotic noises and objects around them. They also need to know what is expected of them in a concrete and timely planned way.
If they don't have that, in general every kid differs a little, they can become annoyed and stressed and act out.
So it is not initially the case to train communications 'skills' but to restore their balance so they are able to learn. And then offer them the information as needed. With extra patience and control if they do understand you and if they are practicly able to perform the task you ask from them. Especially with this intelligence kids are as a standard expected to perform better than they in fact do especially in practical, organisational, social and emotional tasks.
That is contributing to their frustration and behavioural problems.
Punishment is a no-go. As is reward. They need your attention and explanation and good example.

communication and socialization

Yes, that is what I also know about it, of course the depth of problems vary with every child...
I worked with children with autism for some time, but it was 'classical', let's say Kanner Autism, with lower IQ and deep 'by the book' problems...

But it is the same for all of them - keep it simple and clear, give time to be understood, no punishment, and interesting insight from you - no reward. My boy seem to understand the concept of reward as any other child does (he is very verbal, emotional and functional so I don't always follow what I would have if his problems were deeper), but the truth is I can't be sure in which way he 'wired' it to his system of comprehension and compensation...
Thanks, I will think about it

verbal and emotional

My excuses if I annoy you things you already know. It became a hobby and a sport to find the right words and explanations for my kids, a process that will never end. And comes with them aging and being better able to tell me how it is insight their head and how that works.
They can be emotional but they tend not to have spontaneous and intuitive insight in their emotions and their emotions tend to overwhelm them. Emotions can go quickly from little to high in a wink. Unstoppable. Most kids don't always control their emotions or have intuitive insights but with these kids it is extreme. And they need you to teach hem verbally what emotions are and how to handle them. And then they still can have a problem with timely control. We have an old cabinet in the home that if anyone is suddenly struck they can act out on the cabinet. But most of the time they learned how to recognise situations and withdraw from them, by going away or by internal withdrawal and verbal control. But that took some time and learning in the right circumstances, most of it by me and by the right teachers at their special school and by checking with other autistic kids.
You can see the cracks when you ask them to tell you something that needs the right emotional tone and adressing. In his darker periods my son could be extremely anxious and emotional but at the same time answer your questions in a 'neutral' tone of voice not adressing the right empathy so they suggested him to be a 'psychopath'.

the understanding of reward

You can observe how a child responds to reward. If it is an able child that can improvise and construct the expected behaviour without you telling him it will be allright. Even better is when you explain exactly what the kid did right that made him receive the reward.
If it is incidental behaviour and you reward it you will be puzzled why it does not stick and keep being done the wrong way. Extremely so, every kid can make a misstake but if the 'right' behaviour in a kid with autism is not consciously put in his repertoire box with the consisting situation it can show. sometimes they can only show the right behaviour in specially defined situations say at home. And not in another situation, say school. They then don't recognize that the situations is generally the same. They need it to be more specified before they can come up with the right response. Even if you reward them in other situations.
They can have a problem with generalisation. A cookie is only a cookie if it looks and smells the same as the 'iconic' cookie they learned to see as a cookie. If it smells different or looks different they have to build a bridge to bring it in unto the category of 'cookies'.

adequate

Your son can also be pretty much adequate because he is able to theorize around the wanted behaviour. He just needs a little more time to do so. At home you probably have the patience to wait for him but if asked in an immediate way a kid with autism can have a problem, becaus they need to theorize first the information does not come to them intuitively and therefor more quick and instantly.
But becaus of their intelligence you don't see how they do that. What you can see is that they take their time and that they tend not so much to practice -and fail and succeed- but they watch and mimic behaviour and show behaviour only if they almost 'master' it.
So it is important that you give them good examples in behaviour.
In school situations they can mimic school responses and if they are inadequate it will show.
I had a boy here that was imitating teachers preaching if I asked him something. Both to distract the attention away from his own inadequate response by 'attacking' me becaus that was what his teachters did as he asked them a question. They could not believe that he genuinely did need asnwers and accused him from 'attracting attention' when he did. The boy mimicked that. So if I asked him something he had not an immediate answer too he believed it right to bully me as teachters sometimes do.

kentalis

Do you know Kentalis? Also in Utrecht. I think you should contact them and tell your story.

You can also post this question on the forum of lotjeenco.nl

Kentalis

Famous fighters against abusive child protective services, Sven Sneijer and Ranada van Kralingen, Jeugdzorg Dark Horse, had an incident where school, Signis/ under the wing of Kentalis, tried to hide that pupils in their school sexually harassed fellow pupils, by accusing this parents and reporting them to CPS, when they asked to investigate the situation around their autistic daughter who, confirmed by professionals, had been sexually assaulted in school.

annej

Well, I have very good experiences with Kentalis (sint marie).
Don't be afraid, Elen.

adequate and kentalis

yes, Anne, we are fortunate that he is pretty adequate - most of the time he is appropriate, he is not rigid at all, on the contrary, he never had a tantrum in his life, he always accepts the explanation, he doesn't mind if I stop or interrupt him... but he has problems with auto-regulation of his 'urges'- he IS impulsive when there are a lot of stimuli around, he continues to irritate his peers even though he 'knows' he shouldn't...
Problem is also that he is a little vain... so when he doesn't understand, sees that he cannot respond in adequate quality, he 'goes away', he gives up to avoid frustration )
And you most certainly don't annoy me ) Thank you for sharing!

Hallo, Mijntje Thank you for lotjeenco.nl, I'll try Can I ask, do you have an experience with Kentalis? You think they would understand?

conglomerates

Most of these conglomerates are known for redirecting children to CPS if they, as the specialists they are, are out of answers or have to hide their interests. Therefore it is better to have yourself first send by the gp to free specialists. They are more prown to respect your privacy without consequences for themselves. Conglomerates have to subdue to protocols in this sense, even out of financiel reasons.
Although I do know of a case where an Amsterdam free psychologist took a conflict with a parent personal and bullied the parents by reporting them.
In the case of a young autistic girl the autism class of a conglomerate like this could not relieve the schoolrefusal and therefore adviced the parent to ask the guardian of CPS. Who obviously has no clue at all what to do. But take the child out to a closed institution where schooling is a problem in the first place and harassment and abuse is a going concern.

Vain

Vanity can be misinterpreted for perfectonism, an indicator of autism. They need to control their actions by trying to be perfect, theorize before acting, to prevent odd mistakes that did cost them in the past. And forces them to go into a debate with others they cannot win becaus they don't have the intuitive, spontaneous, idea of what it is about and need to take more time than given in a situation of mistakes and fallout. Hence the 'vanity'.

interests and protocol

I witnessed that when, is the first school we've been, an ignorant and incompetent intern begeleider bullied us into contacting some life coach for children (wtf?) and I had to be really clear, borderline rude to explain that we don't need that... I thought that parents do the life coaching for children my god, it's criminal....

I call it vanity because I think that, even if in a small amount, he got it from me. Everything I ever learnt came easy for me, and when I encounter something new that doesn't run smoothly, I have to fight with myself not to give up ) I know, I know...Though, you're right, he is small now, but this is the way they go...

Indeed Elen

Adequate respons! Parents are the life coaches as parents are the problemowners in care or education over their children and not the care or educational system.
As long as you have the right response, always considered and polite but firm.

Help

Yes, you have to be very clear about the th sort of help you do and don't need. School referred me to a fairly useful course for kids going from primary to secondary school. After that they wanted to continue seeing my son because he had problems...well, we knew that already! But we had all the help he needed already set up. Anything else would only have cost our son and us more time and energy.

But like everyone else I think that Onderwijsconsulenten is a good strart to find the right school.